Tom Sgouros is a freelance engineer, policy analyst, and writer. Reach him at ripr@whatcheer.net. Buy his book, "Ten Things You Don't Know About Rhode Island" at whatcheer.net

13 responses to “Budgeting for Disaster Part V: Granting a Problem”

  1. bob sims

    “What’s less forgivable is the way they keep voting to cut taxes without cutting their own budget”
     
    Gee Tommy Boy, where can I get MY tax cut.  My property taxes have done nothing but go up in my 40 years in this state.  Gasoline taxes-up.  Tobacco and alcohol taxes-up.  Sales tax-up.  Tax on that great luxury of food-up.  Hotel and car rental-up.  Cable, telephone, natural gas and electricity taxes-up, up,up and up.  Registration and license fees-up.
    Income tax?  Oh, when I was born Tommy Boy there WAS no income tax and we had better roads, better schools and a better economy-by far.
     
    Now the progressive geniuses  who have given this state half a century of “prosperity through taxes” want to raise the already high state income tax by 70% and the tax on that ultimate luxury item-food-by 25%.
     
    Progressives-good for a laugh but not good for anything else.

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    1. Samuel G. Howard

      Prior to the introduction of our state income tax in 1971, you had the most socialized system of federal government in the history of this country. I’d guess that’s where the state got most of its money. So since you appear to be advocating for a return to the top federal tax rate of anywhere from 72% – 91%, I think you’ll find a lot of people would love to see the government flush with that kind of money to distribute to the relief of the states.

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      1. jgardner

        Samuel –

        Would you work for 10 cents on the dollar? How many people do you think actually paid that 91% top rate?
        The gov is spending more today than it has ever spent in its history (save for maybe WWII). The gov’t has plenty of cash.
        It’s not the job of the federal gov’t to bail out states who can’t manage their finances. Just like we’ve seen countless times before, bailouts only incentivize the actions that caused them.

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        1. Samuel G. Howard

          Yes, I would! After taxes, that would still be an incredible amount of money. If I made a million dollars a year, I’d have $90k after taxes. Although it probably wouldn’t effectively be 91%, since I’d be able to hire an accountant to get me better tax breaks. Plus, there’s a lot of social assistance via tax breaks that I’d be able to qualify for from the government. So I’d probably have more than $90k to spend each year. Buy some treasury bonds, and I’d be able to collect interest on that. Even making $90k a year I’d be far richer than I expect I’ll ever be.

          I imagine that after a while, I’d have adjusted to that level of income, and then I might start complaining about how much the government was taking from me; but maybe I’d feel as a Korean War veteran once told me; that when he was in that bracket he lived just fine. I don’t need a mansion (nor do I particularly want one), I don’t need some fancy car, and I don’t need to spend conspicuously.

          In fact, think of all the money I’d save! I’d be able to buy quality things that wouldn’t fall apart after a few uses, so in the long term, that would be great. If I needed a loan, I’d qualify instantly, and be able to pay it off quickly, so no long-term loans that end up costing me a ton of money. My savings would do great from the interest. I’d be able to make investments. And people would treat me better because I had a ton of cash. And I’d be making so much money that there’d be a huge incentive to keep working; why would I stop? Plus, if I ever felt like it, I could tell any member of government “my taxes pay your salary” and it’d be true. And if I ever felt like my money wasn’t doing right via government programs, I could start/donate to a charity and write it off that way and still keep my money.

          So in short, being rich is great. I hope I am someday.

          Finally, it wouldn’t be a bailout of the states, it’d be funding them to provide services for their citizens, via citizens’ taxes. That seems like a legitimate use of taxes to me.

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          1. RightToWork

            This is just insanity. Nobody would stay in America long if they were actually being taxed at a 91% rate when they could just move to another country – just because you claim to not care about material possessions doesn’t mean that nobody else does, and the things rich people buy, like huge houses, create jobs for other people that wouldn’t otherwise be there (government jobs are a poor and inefficient substitute). That’s also not at all how charity tax deductions work. You can’t just donate a bunch of money, “write it off,” and get your money back. There are limits and you only get a fraction back.

            I’m a salaried employee, so taxes don’t really discourage my current career path or how hard I work in it. However, they absolutely discourage all of the additional jobs/consulting I would be doing on the side. Why should I work my ass off substitute teaching or consulting on weekends for $30-80/hour when government is just going to take a third of it anyway and give it to some old person who paid practically nothing into social security to spend in the casinos in Florida, or a disability cheat, or health care for illegal aliens, etc.? It’s not worth the trouble with the taxes factored in and I can’t take any pride in it. If it was actually helping people, maybe it would be a different story, but I know that’s just a progressive lie.

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            1. Samuel G. Howard

              Right, because so many Americans fled our country during the 1950s and 1960s. I forgot about that mass exodus. They don’t teach that in history class.

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              1. RightToWork

                As Bob pointed out, nobody paid even close to those rates after about a thousand credits, deductions, etc. An effective 91% tax rate would drive virtually all wealthy people out of this country.

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            2. jgardner

              @RTW — well, maybe not drive out the wealthy people themselves, but certainly their money would leave.

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          2. bob sims

            “Yes, I would! After taxes, that would still be an incredible amount of money. If I made a million dollars a year, I’d have $90k after taxes. Although it probably wouldn’t effectively be 91%, since I’d be able to hire an accountant to get me better tax breaks. Plus, there’s a lot of social assistance via tax breaks that I’d be able to qualify for from the government.”
             
            Whew!
            Did you actually read what you just said? 
            You just advocated welfare for anyone making a million dollars a year.
            Grow up kid.  You don’t know sh** about how the world really works.  The whole progressive world is collapsing all around you from Europe to Japan to Cali-phony-ia to sanctuary city Providence.
             

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            1. Samuel G. Howard

              No, I said that the rich already get welfare.

              EDIT: Enlighten me, Mr. Sims. How was your golden era of the 50s and 60s funded?

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          3. jgardner

            Nothing personal, but I have a hard time believing you. If your employer said you were worth an additional $1M, but you took home just $91k of that, you’d rightly be furious.
             
            Imagine all the people you could help and good you could do if you had the $909k the gov took from you. Instead, politicians took your money so they could give it to their corporate buddies. That’s just as good though, right?
             
            Gov taking your money by force and giving it away is the politicians telling you they know how to spend your money better than you. If that isn’t the most insulting thing you’ve ever heard, it’s certainly on the waiting list.
             
            Finally, it wouldn’t be a bailout of the states, it’d be funding them to provide services for their citizens, via citizens’ taxes.
            Nonsense. But let’s look at it at a more local level. If someone in a town over from you couldn’t manage their money, spent far more than they took in, and a politician decided to take some of your money and give it to them to help them shore up their budget (as opposed to reducing their spending), what kind of situation do you think that sets up? Rather than make the tough decisions and prioritize spending, you’ve allowed them to put off that decision for another day. And what happens next year when the same situation arises? How long until you realize you’re just subsidizing their income?

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      2. bob sims

        Do you REALLY think anyone ever actually paid those rates?
        Do a little research, you keep embarrassing yourself.

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  2. Samuel G. Howard

    Okay, so, looking into the research, few in 1960 actually paid 91% of their income. The top .01% paid on average 71%. But frankly, that doesn’t seem to undercut my point. It undercuts the point of those who are arguing that raising taxes would create a mass exodus of rich folks. My point is that even with a 91% effective tax rate, you’ll still be pretty well off, especially if you fall into that bracket. Certainly by comparison with virtually everyone else.

    But as people have been keen to point out, few to no one in 1960 actually had an effective tax rate of 91%. Which is good, because taxing everyone at that bracket at 91% wouldn’t be great. So I want to make clear, I’m not advocating that the ultra-rich should be effectively taxed at 91%. I am arguing that the de jure tax rate could be 91%, and the effective tax rate could be much lower.

    Now, I don’t believe jgardner’s point that I’d be livid to make only a fraction of my income after taxes. Frankly, I think it’d probably all be a step up. Chances are, I would’ve worked my way up from a low starting point. Unless there was some income sweet spot in the 1950s and 1960s where making a smaller amount of money would yield you a better after-tax income (I find that unlikely, due to the obvious social problems that would cause), then almost every increase in income would mean more money. I wouldn’t be starting from $1 mil.,  I’d be working my way up in after-tax income. So I’d already be prepared on how to spend.

    As for the argument that the rich spend their money lavishly, I’m not sure if you’re advocating that the rich should be irresponsible spenders or not. I’m saying that the well-off can easily afford to protect their investments and control their spending. They can also buy better quality items, and they don’t fall into the poverty trap; which includes things like payday loans for example (don’t think for a second that folks who take payday loans don’t know they’re getting screwed).

    You can’t escape the fact that the 1950s and 1960s were probably the most socialized this country has ever been. More people paid taxes, they paid more of them (Reagan eliminated taxes on the poorest). So if things were booming in terms of schools and roads as bob sims says, then how was that being funded? My guess is government funding, as a result of post-Depression policies.

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